alleged ties to saddam hussein the
committee led by senator norm coleman of
minnesota alleges that he received oil
from the iraqi government for his
opposition to u.n sanctions against iraq
committees investigating allegations of
corruption in the un's oil for food
program
here is tuesday's testimony by mr
galloway it lasts about forty five
minutes
miss galloway i'm pleased to have you
before the committee today what i'm
going to do is is briefly summarize the
evidence before i give you a chance to
uh give your your sworn testimony
uh the oil for food program was used to
support those who are favorable to iraq
former iraqi deputy prime minister tariq
aziz and iraqi vice president tahaya sin
ramadan confirmed this
i would think that you would admit that
your efforts to oppose the sanction were
well received by the regime
uh i know it's been quoted too many many
times but your i would say infamous uh
statement to uh saddam hussein on
january 21st 1994
uh where uh you said to uh
saddam your excellency mr president i
greet you in the name of many thousands
of people in britain who stood against
the tide and opposed the war on
aggression against iraq continue to
oppose the war by economic means which
is aimed to strangle the light out of
the great people life by the great
people of iraq
you then want to say he greets the name
of the palestinian people he went on to
note that i thought the president would
appreciate knowing that even today three
years after the war i still meet with
families who are calling their newborn
son saddam
he went on
ultimately at the very end to say sir i
salute your courage your strength your
indephatic ability and i want you to
know that we are with you and i believe
it was in arabic
which means until victory until victory
in jerusalem and i also would note that
you have said that you deeply regret
those comments and that the the comments
were not aimed directly at saddam but
they were aimed at the iraqi people
uh in the fall of 1999 you headed a
two-month london to baghdad bus trip to
gain support for lifting the sanctions
on iraq
uh we have your name on iraqi documents
some thread before the fall of saddam
some after that identify you as one of
the allocation holders that your
allocations were then used by fawaz
zurichcat operations on operating under
the name of iridium petroleum and middle
east advanced semiconductor to actually
lift the oil
we know too based on the statements of
former iraqi officials as well as some
documents and in the cases of vladimir
jinovsky and alexander volshin
correspondents and documents that
allocation holders knew that surcharges
or oil allocations were paid to saddam
hussein and that allocation holders were
aware of this and responsible for the
payments
we've also heard testimony regarding
several documents retrieved from the
iraqi oil oil ministry iraqi ministry of
oil
that demonstrate how iraqi uh iraq
allocated oil to its friends and allies
exhibit 13 which you've seen displayed
in somewhat short that demonstrated
vladimir janoski is dealing with
meschino import in phase 11. that chart
also lists contract m1104 with middle
east advanced semiconductor
footnote 93 her testimony regarding a
sombo commercial invoice dated june 27
2002 that shows middle east
semiconductor loaded two million three
hundred and sixty thousand eight hundred
sixty barrels of iraqi crude oil
pursuant to some crude oil sales
contract m1104
exhibit 12 we heard testimony regarding
correspondence from the executive
director of somo to the iraqi oil
minister providing details of contract
m1104 enlisting your name in parentheses
next to middle east advanced
semiconductor and fawaz zurich who we
know lifted the oil against statements
of detainees including former vice
president ramadan
uh confirmed that the name in
parentheses your name is the allocation
holder
your testimony regarding contract m1104
which was signed on december 12th to
2001 between somo and fawaz zurich
president of middle east advanced
semiconductor
your testimony regarding somo commercial
invoice uh b 13 201 that shows iridium
petroleum lifted 1 million 14 thousand
four hundred three barrels of iraqi oil
pursuant to some crude oil sales
contract m 923
exhibit 45 for a testimony regarding a
somo chart entitled crude oil
allocations during phase nine of the
memorandum of understanding the
medicaid's contract m-923 was executed
between somo mr falwes zorokot slash
george galloway slash iridium petroleum
exhibit nine we also heard testimony
regarding a memo from the executive
director of somo to the oil minister
requesting approval of contract m923
the document includes an official
ministry of oil stamp dated 115 201
and provides details of the contract
m923
signed with iridium petroleum company
parens for zurich dash miriam's appeal
indicated that the allocation recipient
for contract m923 was forward zurich
miriam's appeal
mr galloway has indicated my opening
statement this is not a court of law
this committee has simply made available
information obtained during the
investigation from interviews of former
iraqi officials as well as iraqi
documents that lay out how the oil for
food program worked how allocations were
given to favored friends allocation
holders made substantial commissions on
those allocations to oil companies what
ramadan called compensation for support
but another official when talking about
another allocation holder said of course
they made a profit that's the whole
point
how surcharges and oil contracts were
given back to the saddam regime and with
the responsibility of the allocation
holder the evidence and clearly
identifies you as an allocation
beneficiary who transferred the
allocations to fawaz zurich
who became chairman of your organization
miriam's appeal bill senior iraqi
officials have confirmed that you in
fact received oil allocations and that
the documents that identify you as an
allocation recipient are valid
if you can help provide any evidence
that challenges the veracity of these
documents or the statements of former
iraqi officials we'd welcome that input
mr galloway you're appearing before the
subcommittee without asserting any
privilege or immunity indeed your
appearance before the subcommittee is
entirely voluntary and on your own
accord no subpoena was issued to secure
your appearance you're appearing before
the subcommittee concerning matters that
do not arise out of the performance of
any of your official duties as a member
of the british parliament but instead
concern actions taken by you and your
capacity as a private citizen
before we begin pursuant to rule six all
witnesses who testified before the
subcommittee required to be sworn it's
time to ask you to rise and please raise
your right hand
you swear the testimony you're about to
give before the subcommittee is the
truth the whole truth and nothing but
the truth so help your god
we will be using a timing system today
uh mr galloway we have 10 minutes for
opening statement if you need more time
we'll certainly accommodate that and uh
you may proceed
senator
i am not now
nor have i ever been
an oil trader
and neither has anyone
on my behalf
i have never seen a ball of oil
owned one
bought one
sold one
and neither has anybody on my behalf
now i know that standards have slipped
over the last few years in washington
but for a lawyer
you're remarkably cavalier with any idea
of justice
i'm here today
but last week
you already found me guilty
you introduced my name around the world
without ever having asked me a single
question
without ever having contacted me
without ever having written to me
or telephoned me
without any contact with me whatsoever
and you call that
justice
now i want to deal with the
pages that relate to me
in this dossier
and i want to point out areas
where there are
let's be charitable
and say
errors
and then i want to put this in the
context
that i believe it ought to be
on the very first page
of your document
about me
you assert
that i have had
many meetings
with saddam hussein
this is false
i have had two meetings with saddam
hussein
once in 1994
and once in august of 2002
by no stretch of the english language
can that be described as many meetings
with saddam hussein as a matter of fact
i've met saddam hussein exactly the same
number of times
as donald rumsfeld met him
the difference is
donald rumsfeld met him to sell him guns
and to give him maps the better to
target those guns
i met him
to try and bring about an end to
sanctions suffering and war and on the
second of the two occasions
i met him to try and persuade him
to allow dr hans blix and the united
nations weapons inspectors back into the
country a rather better use of two
meetings with saddam hussein than your
own secretary of state for defense made
of his
in the same opening paragraph
you assert that i was an outspoken
supporter
of the hussein regime
this is false
i have brought along here
a dossier
a dossier for all the members of your
committee
of statements by me as late
as early rather as the 15th of march
1990
in which i condemn the saddam hussein
dictatorship
in them the saddam hussein dictatorship
in the most withering terms
a stance i have taken
since around about the time you were an
anti-vietnam war demonstrator
i was an opponent of saddam hussein when
british and american governments and
businessmen were selling him guns and
gas
i used to demonstrate outside the iraqi
embassy when british and american
officials were going in and out doing
commerce you will see from the official
parliamentary record
hansard
from the 15th of march 1990 onwards
voluminous
evidence
that i have a rather better record of
opposition to saddam hussein than you do
and then any member of the british or
american governments do
now you say in this document you quote a
source you have the goal to quote a
source
without ever having asked me if the
allegation from the source was true
that i am quote the owner of a company
which has made substantial profits from
trading in iraqi oil
senator
i do not own
any companies
beyond
a small company whose entire purpose
whose sole purpose
is to receive the income from my
journalistic earnings from my employer
associated newspapers in london
i do not own a company
that's been trading in iraqi oil and you
had no business to carry a quotation
utterly unsubstantiated and false
implying otherwise
now you have nothing on me senator
except my name on
lists of names
from iraq many of which have been drawn
up
after the installation of your puppet
government in baghdad
if you had any of the letters against me
that you had against zeranovsky and even
pasqua they would have been up there in
your slideshow for the members of your
committee today
you have my name on lists
provided to you by the dhofar inquiry
provided to him
by the convicted bank robber and
fraudster and con man ahmed chalabi who
many people to their credit in your
country now realize played a decisive
role in leading your country into the
disaster in iraq there were 270 names on
that list originally that's somehow been
filleted down to the names you chose
to deal with in this committee
some of the names on that committee
included
the former secretary to his holiness
pope john paul ii
the former head of the african national
congress presidential office
and many others who had one defining
characteristic in common
they all stood against the policy of
sanctions and war which you vociferously
prosecuted and which has led us to this
disaster
you quote mr taha yasin ramadan
well you have something on me
i've never met mr taha yasin ramadan
your subcommittee apparently has
but i do know that he's your prisoner
i believe he's in abu ghraib prison
i believe he's facing war crimes charges
punishable by
death
in these circumstances knowing what the
world knows
about how you treat prisoners
in abu ghraib prison in bagram air base
in guantanamo bay
including him i may say british citizens
being held in those places
i'm not sure how much credibility anyone
would put on anything you managed to get
from a prisoner in those circumstances
but you quote 13 words from taha you
seen ramadan whom i have never met
if he said
what he said then he is wrong
and if you had
any evidence that i had ever engaged in
any actual oil transaction if you had
any evidence that anybody ever gave me
any money
it would be before the public and before
this commitment today because i agreed
with your mister greenblatt
your mr greenblatt was absolutely
correct
what counts is not the names on the
paper
what counts is where's the money senator
who paid me hundreds of thousands of
dollars of money the answer to that is
nobody and if you had anybody who ever
paid me a penny you would have produced
them here today
now you refer
at length
to a company
named in these documents
as a radio petroleum
i say to you under oath here today
i have never heard of this company
i have never met anyone from this
company this company has never paid a
penny to me
and i'll tell you something else
i can assure you
that a radio petroleum has never paid a
single penny
to the mariam appeal campaign
not a thin
dime
i don't know who a radio petroleum are
but i dare say if you were to ask them
they would confirm that they have never
met me or ever paid me a penny
whilst i'm on that subject who is the
senior
former regime official that you spoke to
yesterday
don't you think i have a right to know
don't you think the committee and the
public have a right to know
who this senior former regime official
you were quoting against me interviewed
yesterday actually is
now
one of the most serious of the mistakes
that you have made
in this
set of documents
is to be frank
such a schoolboy howler
as to make a fool
of the efforts that you have made
you assert
on page
19
not once but twice
that the documents
that you're referring to
cover a different period in time
from the documents
covered by the daily telegraph which
were the subject of
a libel action won by me in the high
court in england
late last year
you state
that the daily telegraph article cited
documents
from 1992 and 1993
whilst you
are dealing with documents dating from
2001.
senator the daily telegraphs documents
date identically to the documents that
you are dealing with in your report here
none of the daily telegraphs documents
dealt with a period of 1992-1993
i had never set foot in iraq
until
late in 1993. never in my life
there could possibly be no documents
relating to oil for food matters in
1992-93 for the oil for food scheme did
not exist at that time
and yet
you've allocated a full section of this
document to claiming that your documents
are from a different era
to the daily telegraph documents when
the opposite is true
your documents and the daily telegraph
documents
deal with exactly the same period
but perhaps you were confusing the daily
telegraph action
with the christian science monitor
the christian science monitor did indeed
publish
on its front pages
a set of allegations against me very
similar to the ones that your committee
have made
they did indeed rely on documents which
started in 1992
1993
these documents were unmasked by the
christian science monitor themselves
as
forgeries
now
the neocon websites and newspapers in
which you're such a hero senator
were all absolutely cock-a-hoop at the
publication of the christian science
monitor documents they were all
absolutely convinced of their
authenticity
they were all absolutely convinced that
these documents showed me receiving 10
million dollars from the saddam hussein
regime and they were all lies
in the same week as the daily telegraph
published their documents against me the
christian science monitor published
theirs which turned out to be forgeries
which turned out to be forgeries
and the british newspaper mail on sunday
purchased a third set of documents which
also on forensic examination turned out
to be forgeries so there's nothing
fanciful about this
nothing at all
fanciful about it
the existence of forged documents
implicating me in commercial activities
with the iraqi regime
is a proven fact it's a proven fact that
these forged documents existed and were
being circulated amongst right-wing
newspapers
in baghdad
and around the world in the immediate
aftermath of the fall of the iraqi
regime now senator
i gave my heart and soul
to oppose the policy
that you promoted
i gave my political life's blood
to
try to stop
the mass killing of iraqis
by the sanctions
on iraq
which killed a million iraqis most of
them children
most of them died before they even knew
that they were iraqis
but they died for no other reason other
than that they were iraqis with the
misfortune to be born at that time
i gave my heart and soul to stop you
committing the disaster
that you did commit
in invading iraq
and i told the world
that your case
for the war
was a pack of lies
i told the world that iraq contrary to
your claims did not have weapons of mass
destruction
i told the world
contrary to your claims that iraq had no
connection to al-qaeda
i told the world contrary to your claims
that iraq had no connection to the
atrocity on 9 11
2001. i told the world contrary to your
claims
that the iraqi people would resist a
british and american invasion of their
country and that the fall of baghdad
would not be the beginning of the end
but merely the end of the beginning
senator in everything i said about iraq
i turned out to be right and you turned
out to be wrong and a hundred thousand
people have paid with their lives
sixteen hundred of them american
soldiers sent to their deaths on a pack
of lies
fifteen thousand of them wounded many of
them disabled forever on a pack of lies
if the world had listened to kofi annan
whose dismissal you demanded
if the world had listened to president
shirak who you want to paint as some
kind of corrupt traitor if the world had
listened to me and the anti-war movement
in britain we would not be in the
disaster that we're in today
senator this is the mother of all smoke
screens
you are trying to divert attention
from the crimes that you supported
from the theft of billions of dollars of
iraq's wealth
have a look at the real oil for food
scandal have a look at the 14 months you
were in charge of baghdad the first 14
months
when 8.8 billion dollars of iraq's
wealth went missing on your watch
have a look at halliburton and the other
american corporations that stole not
only iraq's money but the money of the
american taxpayer
have a look at the oil that you didn't
even meter
that you were shipping out of the
country and selling the proceeds of
which went who knows where have a look
at the 800 million dollars you gave to
american military commanders to hand out
around the country without even counting
it or weighing it
have a look at the real scandal breaking
in the newspapers today
revealed in the earlier testimony in
this committee that the biggest
sanctions busters
were not me
or russian politicians or french
politicians the real sanctions busters
were your own companies with the
connivance of your own government
thank you mr galloway mr gallery can we
start by talking about uh farwo's
azarika
do you know the individual i know
in fact you were best man at his wedding
i was
and at some point in time he became
chair of miriam's appeal is that correct
he did yeah and can you tell me when
that occurred
i think in late 2000 or early 2001
uh
before mr zurich was chair of miriam's
pill who who had that position i was the
founding chairman was there somebody in
between you and mr halford and you
recall when he had that position i don't
uh mr uh
zaragod was a significant contributor to
miriam's appeal is that correct he was
the second biggest contributor the main
contributor was sheikh zayed the ruler
of the united arab emirates which you've
glossed over in your report because it's
slightly embarrassing to you
and the third major contributor was the
crown prince of saudi arabia which
you've equally glossed over because it's
embarrassing to you and how much both of
those individuals are your friends how
much did mr zaraki contribute to
miriam's appeal roughly 375 000 english
pounds at about
thousand dollars america well i don't
know the conversion but it's three
hundred and seventy five thousand
sterling uh if you can uh
and he was by the way mr mr eric it was
your representative
uh
designated representative for the
activity of miriam's appeal is that
correct for the activities of the
marijuana and when did he uh get that
position
i think late 2000 late 2000
uh
looking at uh exhibit
uh nine
exhibit nine
and i think you have the books in front
of you
yeah uh that appears to be a document
for the ministry of oil
testimony has indicated that the
signature is an accurate signature do
you have any reason to believe that
document's false well i've told you that
i have never heard of a radio petroleum
and i've told you that the mariam appeal
never received a single penny from a
radio petroleum so the information at
the top of the page if you have
translated it accurately is false have
you heard of middle east uh middle east
asi company yes that's mr zurich company
can i
turn to exhibit 12.
12 or 11 12.
yep
and that reports to be a uh again a uh
stamp the seal of the ministry of oil
people of iraq
and this uh affords to be a uh shown the
details of a contract signed with middle
east asi company so george galloway and
uh for for zarquette so middle east asi
is mrs erica's company middle east asi
is mr zurich company he may well have
signed an oil contract it had nothing to
do with me uh did you he was uh chair of
miriam's appeal and in 2000 so i take it
you
knew him well uh did he ever talk to you
about his uh
dealings and uh in oil with iraq he did
better than that he talked to everybody
he talked to every english journalist
that came through baghdad who he helped
our request
to get the interviews and get the places
that they wanted and needed to go
he was introduced to everyone as a major
benefactor of the mariam appeal and
as a businessman doing extensive
business in iraq and elsewhere in the
middle east i'm asking you specifically
uh
in 2001 did you were you aware that he
was doing oil deals with iraq i was
aware that he was doing extensive
business with iraq i did not know the
details of it it was not my business
so this is somebody who's a chairman of
your committee that you know well and
you you're not able to say that he was
well there's a lot of contributors i've
just been checking to your uh there's
not not many at that level mr gallagher
no let me just
i've checked your website but there are
lots of contributors to your political
campaign funds i don't suppose you ask
any of them how they made the money they
give you certainly not at six hundred
thousand dollars american but let me
again ask because i just the record is
clear i need to be clear on the record
that that uh you're not
contesting then the validity of document
12 exhibit 12. you're indicating that mr
uh zarquette could have had dealings
with iraq but you're saying that at that
point in time you were not aware
that he had oil dealings with first of
all i've only seen this document today
and i'm telling you
that insofar as my name is in a
parenthesis
the information in it is false i have no
reason to believe mr zurich's company
did not do that particular oil deal but
this is your problem in this whole
affair there is nobody arguing that mr
zurich company did not do oil
transactions and many other much bigger
frankly business contracts with iraq
there's nobody contesting that mr zurich
made substantial donations to our
campaign against sanctions and war my
point is you have accused me personally
of enriching myself of taking money from
iraq and that is false and unjust mr
galloway do you recall an interview we
had with the jeremy paxman in april 23rd
2003.
do we have a copy of the transcript of
that
i'd like to refresh your memory
let me get a copy of that
as we get you a copy i'm going to ask
you were asked the question talking
about business dealings with mr zarakott
in iraq and at least the transcript that
i have and i'd like you to let me know
if it's incorrect
uh your quote is i've asked him about
business and iraq and quote well i'm
trying to reach him this is in well i'm
trying to reach him this is in 2003.
i'm trying to reach him to ask him if
he's ever been involved in oil deals
because i don't know the answer to that
so in 2003 you're saying you don't know
the answer whether he's involved in oil
deals well i told you in my previous two
answers i knew that mr zurich was
heavily involved in business in iraq and
elsewhere but that it was none of my
business what particular transactions or
business he was involved in any more
than you ask the american israel public
affairs committee when they donate money
to you or pay for your trips to israel
where they got the money from
so mr galloway you would have this
committee believe that you designated
representative miriam's appeal becomes
the chair of the miriam's appeal who's
listed in iraqi documents is obviously
doing
business oil deals with iraq that you
never had a conversation with him in
2001 or whether he was ever doing oil
business with iraq no i'm doing better
than that i'm telling you that i knew
that he was doing a vast amount of
business with iraq much bigger as i said
a couple of answers ago than any oil
business he did
in the airport he was the representative
of some of the world's biggest companies
in iraq he was an extremely wealthy
businessman doing very extensive
business in iraq not only did i know
that but i told everyone about it i
emblazoned it in our literature on our
website precisely so that people like
you could not later
credibly question my bona fide is in
that regard so i did better than that i
never asked him if he was trading in oil
i knew he was a big trader with iraq and
i told everybody about it so in 2003
when you said you didn't know whether he
was doing oil deals we were telling the
truth at that time yes i was i've never
known until the uh telegraph story
appeared
that he was alleged to be doing oil
deals but his oil deals are about one
tenth
of the business that he did in iraq so i
did better than telling people about his
oil deals i told him he was doing much
much more than that
so exhibit 14
which reports to be a contract with
middle east semiconductor
contract m1214
middle east semiconductor again is mr
zarquette's company is that correct
this is
so uh
do you have any reason any reason to
believe that this document is is false
well the parenthesis
if the parenthesis implies as you've
been arguing all morning that it implies
that this was being signed for by middle
east advanced semiconductors in order to
pass the money on to me is false
mr zurich and middle east semiconductors
or any other company have never given me
any money and if they had you would have
up here on a board and in front of the
committee here
i take it mr uh galloway that
in regard to any surcharges paid to
saddam and i think it's footnote 89
which refers to the the surcharge for
the
contract
uh focused on miriam's appeal you're
saying that that document first of all
any any uh contract between iraq and
variance appeals is uh false well
senator i'd gotten used to the
allegation that i was taking money from
saddam hussein it's it's it's actually
surreal
to hear in this room this morning that
i'm being accused of giving money to
saddam hussein
this is utterly preposterous utterly
preposterous that i gave 300 000 to
saddam hussein this is
beyond the realms of the ridiculous now
the mariam appeals finances have been
investigated by the charity commission
on the order of lord goldsmith you'll
recall him senator he's the attorney
general
practically the only law man in the
world that thought your war with iraq
was legal thought britain joining your
war with iraq was legal he ordered the
charity commission to investigate the
mariam appeal using their statutory
powers
they recovered all money in and all
money out ever received or spent by the
mariam appeal they found no impropriety
and i can assure you they found no money
from an oil contract from a radio
petroleum none whatsoever
and the uh the commission uh did not
look at at uh these documents relating
to this contract with iraq but they
looked better than that senator i'm not
asking you better asking the question
senator you're not listening to what i'm
saying they did better than that they
looked to every penny in and every penny
out
and they did not find i can assure you
any trace
of a donation from a company called a
radio petroleum or frankly a donation
from any company other than mr zurich
company
that's a fact
if i can get back to mr zurich one more
time
do you recall a time when he
specifically when you speak out a
conversation with him about oil dealings
in iraq
i've already answered that question
i can assure you
mr zurich
never
gave me a penny
from an oil deal
from a cake deal
from a bread deal
or from any deal
he donated money to our campaign which
we publicly brandished on all of our
literature along with the other donors
to the campaign
again mr galloway a simple question i'm
looking for either a yes or no do you
ever have conversation with this erica
where he informed you that he had oil
dealings with iraq yes or no
not before this uh daily telegraph
report now
senator levin
thank you thank you mr galloway
um
mr gallic
could you take a look at the exhibit
number 12.
yep
where your name is in parenthesis after
mr zurich
before mr zurich
if i'm looking at the right i'm sure i
was going to finish my sent my question
though uh
my question was where your name is in
parenthesis after mr zurich companies i
apologize senator that's all right
now that
document assuming it's a accurate
translation of the document
underneath it
um
would you say you're not alleging here
today that the document is a forgery i
gather well i have no idea senator if
that's a forgery or not but you're not
allowed i'm saying that the information
insofar as it relates to me is fake
is wrong it's wrong that you're not
alleging that the document well i have
no way of knowing something that's fine
so you're not alleged no i'm no way i've
no way of knowing this is fair to say
since you don't know well you're not a
legend would have been nice to have seen
it before today
not is it fair to say though that either
because you've not seen it before or
because because otherwise you don't know
you're not alleging the documents are
fake is that is that fair to say i
haven't had it in my possession long
enough to form a view about that would
you let the subcommittee know after
you've had it in your
possession long enough whether you
consider the document yeah although
there is a
there is an academic quality about all
uh senator eleven because you've already
found me guilty before you before you
actually allowed me to come here and
speak for myself well in in order to
attempt to clear your name would you
let's be clear about something so let me
finish my question let me be clear about
that first of all
would you submit to the subcommittee
after you've had a chance to review this
document whether or not in your judgment
it is a forgery will you do that well if
you give me the original
i mean this is not presumably you wrote
this english translation yes and there's
a there's a copy underneath it
yes there is a copy of a gray blur if
you if you're giving me the copy of the
original you'll give me the original in
a decipherable way then of course that's
that'd be fine we would appreciate that
yeah um now if if at the bottom of this
document assuming it's assuming it's not
a forgery for a moment um
it says surcharge
are we together
as per the instructions of your
excellency over the phone on 12 1101 of
not accepting the company's proposals
unless they pay the debt incurred since
phase eight
if in fact if in fact mr zurich's
company
paid a
surcharge or a kickback to the iraqi
government
in order to obtain an allocation of oil
would that trouble you
well it turns out from your own
testimony that practically everyone in
the world and especially the united
states was paying kickbacks my question
it troubles me a great deal yeah as
you've heard about my from my
from my statement today i'm very much
troubled that we have an oil company
that was involved in this and we're
going to go after that oil company now
let me ask you
i've expressed my view about the bay oil
so now let me ask you about mr zircott's
company if in fact
mr zurich's company paid a kickback to
the iraqi government in order to obtain
this allocation would you be troubled
that's my question yeah that's a good
question and and will you i appreciate
you will you allow me to answer it
seriously
seriously not in a yes or no fashion
because i could give you a glimpse
providing you give us an answer i'd be
delighted providing you give us an
answer i'd be delighted to hear it
here's my answer and i hope it does
delight you i opposed the oil for food
program with all my heart
not for the reasons that you are
troubled by it
but because it was
a program
which saw the death
i'm talking about the death now i'm
talking about a mass grave
of a million people most of them
children in iraq
the oil for food program gave 30 cents
per day per iraqi
for the period of the all for food
program 30 cents for all food all
medicine all clothes all schools all
hospitals all public services
i believe that the united nations had no
right to starve iraq's people because it
had fallen out with iraq's dictator
david bonier your former colleague
senator whom i admired very much a
former chief whip here on the hill
described the sanctions policy as
infanticide masquerading as politics
senator coleman thinks that's funny but
i think it's the most profound
description of that era that i have ever
read
infanticide masquerading as politics
so i opposed this program with all my
heart
not because saddam was getting kickbacks
from it
and i don't know when it's alleged these
kickbacks started not because some
individuals were getting rich doing
business with iraq under it
but because it was
a murderous policy of killing huge
numbers of iraqis that's what troubles
me
that's what troubles me
now
if you're asking me that is mr zurich in
some difficulty
like all the other companies
that it would appear
paid kickbacks to the iraqi regime no
doubt he is although it would appear
he's quite small beer compared to the
american companies who were involved in
the same thing
now my question
that's what i told you what troubles me
and i've asked you i'm asking you i
would have trouble my question now now
that you've given us your your again
your your statement about your feeling
about the oil for food program
um my question is would you be troubled
if you knew that mr zurich
paid a kickback in order to get an
allocation of an oil contract that's a
very simple question it's mr zurich's
problem not mine it would not trouble
you it's mr zurich's problem not mine
and so that if an ill if a kickback
which was illegal under international
and now you may not agree with the u.n
but that's the international community
that you're attacking which is fine
you're entitled to do that you're
entitled and i'll defend your right to
do it but you're attacking a u n program
which is your right to do which was
aimed at providing humanitarian
assistance to try to alleviate the
problems that the sanctions provided
which is your right to do but my
question which you are so far evading is
would you be troubled if that un oil for
food program
was being circumvented by the kind of
kickbacks which were taking place and
being given to saddam hussein in order
to obtain allocations under that program
if
mr zurich participated in that kickback
scheme which violated the u.n saying you
may not have agreed with it that it
violated the program would it trouble
you if he violated that u.n program in
that way that's my question senator
there are many things i know other
things trouble you but can you just give
us a straightforward answer you've given
us a long explanation of other things
that trouble you which is you're right
now i'm asking you whether that troubles
you
it troubles me that it might put him
in difficulty
it troubles me
that it might now
lead to a prosecution of him it troubles
me
that uh
this will be further
smoke in the smokescreen
but i root and branch opposed this
oil for food programs a lot of things
you oppose but you don't believe should
be circumvented in illegal ways isn't it
please senator you supported the illegal
attack on iraq don't talk to me about
illegal sorry about that i didn't but
that's beside the point well
that's that's beside the point you're
you're wrong on your face i'm
collectively talking about the senate
not you personally well it's okay sorry
let me go back to my question i don't
want to get well i don't want to get
across i don't want to get involved why
not you want to talk about illegality no
you launched an illegal war which has
killed a hundred thousand let's try you
want me to be troubled about no i want
you to answer i want you to answer
questions which are fairly put and
directly
now i'll ask you one last quest two last
questions
if
mr zurich's contributions
to miriam's appeal
came from
the sale of oil or his share of a sale
from oil
which he was able to obtain because he
paid a kickback in violation of the un
program would that
contribution trouble you that's my
question well well
senator if you can't give a short answer
i'll give as short as i can and i
appreciate your fairness in this
fundraising for political purposes
is seldom pretty
as any american politician could testify
i took the view i can be criticized for
it
have been criticized for it
that i would fundraise from the kings of
arabia
whose political systems i have opposed
all my life
in order to raise funds for what i
thought was an emergency
facing a disaster and
i did not ask mr zurich which part of
his profits from his entire business
empire he was making donations to our
that wasn't my question my question was
no my question is would it trouble you
if you found that out and yeah it's okay
you're not going to answer it it's clear
to me i want to go to my next question
all right you're just simply not going
to answer i will say american
politicians who find the source of money
after it's given to them is troubling
when they find out something they didn't
know afterwards frequently well and
hopefully i think always but at least
frequently will return that money will
say they disagree with the source of the
money hopefully all of us will do that
but whether or not we all live up to
that standard you clearly do not adopt
that as a standard for contributions to
miriam's appeal you're not going to look
at the source of the money you're just
simply going to accept the money and
you've made that clear i want to just
ask you about tariq aziz yeah tariq aziz
you you've indicated you you uh
who you didn't talk to and who you did
talk to did you have conversations with
tariq aziz about the award of oil
allocations that's my question
thank you i'm done thank you just uh one
follow-up on the tariq as his question
uh how often how did you describe your
relationship with threak aziz friendly
how often did you uh meet him many times
did you have can you give an estimate to
that
no many times he said well many times
more than five yes yes more than ten yes
is it fifteen around fifteen
well we're getting nearer but i i
haven't ever counted it but many times
and you have things i'm saying to you
many times and i'm saying to you i was
friendly with him he described his very
dear friend
uh i think you've quoted me of saying a
dear dear friend i don't often use the
double uh
adjective
but uh i was looking into your heart on
that but uh
friend i have no problem with senator
just before you go on
i do hope you'll avail yourself of this
dossier that i have produced i'm really
speaking through you to senator levin
this is what i've said about saddam
hussein we will uh enter that into the
record uh with without objection
i have no further questions for the
witness your excuse mr scowley thank you
very
did we much a vote
take a look at that it's either a recess
or a vote
looks like either a vote or a recess
a 15-minute vote
what 15
we have a we have a vote the uh the
hearing will be recessed we have one
more probably recess for uh
20 minutes
um